The Holbrooke-Perle Double Act
United Nations and NATO
Holbrooke: "The UN is indispensable and deeply flawed. Do you abandon it or strengthen it? I believe we should strengthen it."
Perle: "If the UN is going to be effective in the 21st century, it is going to have to come to grips with terrorism. I hope we will now see a debate in the United Nations for reform so that the threats of this century are addressed by the UN."
Holbrooke, a major force behind the policy that fashioned NATO's enlargement: "NATO is the most important, most effective military alliance in history. It was established originally to curb expansion of the Soviet Union westwards. The new NATO is quite different… An enlarged NATO poses no threat to Russia. I see no reason whatsoever to regard NATO as a destabilising force."
Democracy, military power, terrorism
Perle: "What is often referred to as (US) neo-conservatism is often classical liberalism… to advance the cause of democracy and individual rights. Democracies don't start aggressive wars but they will defend themselves in case of attack. This is the essence of neo-conservatism."
"I believe, for my own country, that we try to exercise great restraint in the use of military power."
"The lesson from 9/11 is that it is possible to wait too long before responding to a visible threat… We could, at any time, have taken pre-emptive action against the Taliban (in Afghanistan) and al-Qaeda. One result of that is that we are not going to wait too long again."
Holbrooke: "The US believes in democracy. Every US president in the past century has tried to promote democracy, some more aggressively than others. The US stands for democracy. We are not going to dictate to other countries… We don't agree with China's form of government but we deal with them."
"Moslem bashing"
In answer to a Pakistani questioner who asked "Is Moslem bashing being overplayed?" and accused Ambassador Holbrooke of referring earlier to "Islamic terrorists".
Holbrooke: "I never used the phrase 'Islamic terrorist'… I said not all Moslems are terrorists. For us, the critical variable is how to differentiate."
"The US has not yet found a way to determine how it should deal with Western values and a fundamental adherence to Islam. Terror is only a tactic used through history by people for political ends."
Perle: "There is a misconception that the United States is hostile to a Moslem world. This is contradicted by Bosnia and Kosovo, which were interventions on behalf of Moslems. I think the concept is misleading and wrong. Moslem bashing is not the policy of the United States."
"But it would be foolish to deny that there are people who regard the United States as an infidel country, and a Satan to people who want to impose an extreme form of Islam on the whole world. The problem is intolerance, wherever it is to be found."
Kazakhstan and oil
In answer to a Kazakh questioner, who said "big oil" could cause problems:
Perle: "If oil in this part of the world is to be used effectively, it must be used for development. I believe… the big tragedy of the Gulf kingdoms is that they have not used their proceeds for the betterment of the people as a whole."
"I am impressed by Kazakhstan's understanding of the opportunity it has to develop its resources for the benefit of its people."
Holbrooke: "I agree with Richard about the strategic role of Kazakhstan and how critical it is as it matures as a newly emerging nation to define itself… It is a tragic but unavoidable fact that most countries with large resources of oil have not used their resources effectively. They have just dribbled away their assets. The use of resources by countries such as Kazakhstan is critical."
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